Shane Sutherland, Founder, CEO and Chief Mischief Maker at PebblePad joins Professor Sally Lift for a keynote conversation. This recording is from our 2022 Brisbane, Australia MiniBash community event. Videos are for educational personnel only and require a live educational email to watch. You can read the video transcript below.
Hello everybody. How are you doing? Pretty good. I didn’t wanna kinda walk on and try and do your little curtsy thing, but I’m I’ve been at, like, normal wisdoms.
So — Go on. — can we see at the back? I’m I’m thrilled at having the opportunity to chat to Sally.
As I’m thrilled. I’m actually terrified.
Right back at you.
Alison said, we’ve we’ve got a fabulous person to come and speak at our event.
When I’m thinking just having her talk, wouldn’t be enough. It might be great fun.
Ask Alison for a definition of fun.
If you have a conversation with Sally. And so that’s what we decided to do. We we actually had a really lovely conversation. We did. On zoom so actually we’ll just show you the Zoom recording of our first conversation.
And move on.
So who is anyone here who doesn’t know?
Sally or of Sally? You’ve been saying a lot to everyone today. So Hi.
And I have to say Sally’s like, got thirty seven pages of words. No. No.
That should be me because we know that Sally’s really expert, thought about, you know, experts are funny kind of taunting of folks, isn’t it? I thought about written about talked about this stuff for a long time. So I’m thrilled to be able to talk to you, Sally.
And I’m hoping my questions could be in fact I kinda know what my questions are. This is more of trutch than anything else.
And my first question is okay to lead straight in. And it might not be in the same order as you prepared. Oh, that’s fine. Because this isn’t working.
And something about I think getting I think my first couple of questions get into the language of this accent, because language can trip you up a little, I think. And at home certainly for the last few years, and maybe changing now There’s been some people react badly to the idea of employability.
I think because it sort of speaks to potentially a sort of narrow or reductive sort of view of what higher education is all about.
And so there are various other terms like career ready, world ready, future ready.
And so I wondered what your view of the language is whether it’s okay to be talking about employability and for example employability skills.
So thank you, Shane. Hello, everyone. I’d also like to acknowledge the durable and negative people as the first nation known as of the unseated land on which we are here today and pay my respects to elders past present and emerging and acknowledge any indigenous colleagues in the room or watching on Zoom later on.
So thanks Shane. Look so you’re speaking to my discipline. My discipline is and language is a cause for obfuscation endlessly, so we never actually get to the substance. So I think we need to settle on what it is.
I think we also need to appreciate that when higher education rails against employability, I think it’s really disrespectful of students’ investment of time, money, and resources often are considerable sacrifice to themselves, and they expect quite legitimately in a return on that investment. So, you know, I don’t mind you, but future readiness was the proposition that you put to me. I don’t think it really matters. As long as we we’re clear about what it is because it can’t be a slippery a slippery term.
Future focus or future readiness is is appropriate because what we need to be thinking about now is how we help our students understand that lifelong learning needs to be a reality for them and how that might play out over the curriculum. And we need to articulate also, I think, what that lifelong learning ecosystem might look like because we’re getting a lot of rhetoric from around the place about, you know, you don’t need a degree or you don’t need any you just do some weird thing on for two hours on a Saturday, and that’ll get you in into a job.
The National Skills Commission has said and its predecessor, the department said for a long time that the next five years will require ninety percent of workers to have a post secondary qualification.
So the ecosystem starts with now almost universal access or should be universal access from secondary into tertiary to get some entry level qualification and then they go on this upskilling and reskilling circle because lifelong learning is is what it’s all about. Alfa beta did a report in twenty nineteen, which I thought was just great, but said that everyone will now have to spend a third more of their time upskilling for changes in job jobs and rescaling for new job tasks, and the job tasks were changing at an average of eighteen percent over a decade and that varied, of course, between butchers which hardly changed and secretaries and architects which have really changed about forty two percent My discipline law solicitors had changed. Their job tasks had changed about twenty three percent. So just, you know, trying to understand that and and helping our students develop that lifelong learning commitment ethos capability, I think is is vital to the current notion of employability.
And digitisation and digitalisation have contributed that, but there’s a range of other things as well and globalisation is particularly one of them.
That’s what it’s about for me, employability is this commitment to and capability for lifelong learning. Which requires a reflective capability, which is why I have endless mad looking notes because I reflect on you know, what I do right and wrong and how I might improve for the next time and can and more now in continuing professional development for continuing competence in the profession.
They’re they’re walking back from a minimum requirement of ten hours of post admission, in my case, post admission, continuing professional development, that’s pretty much unregulated.
And they’re trying to get practitioners to reflect on their learning development needs and where their strengths and weaknesses are. You say it out loud and it makes perfect sense. But one of the big failings in the education system is that the various professions and industry workers don’t have a reflective capability. And don’t really know how to go about that.
So that leads me then to career development learning, which I think is another thing and and you’re all quite familiar with that. But I think many of our colleagues, probably not so familiar.
And I’m talking about the process of managing life work and living and and learning over the over the lifespan.
And if there was a technical description, starts talking about transition learning, self awareness, opportunity, awareness, and decision making, and thinking about how we get students to engage in this reflective meta cognitive capability over a period of time. I actually think career development learning is a 21st century skill I was on the Australian qualifications framework review, I know, too exciting. Don’t even get me started.
I would like to have seen career development learning in there, we’ve got to and I won’t want to spoil the end of the story. We we got to a a fair way through it, but that’s how important I think career development learning is now because it wraps up that reflective capability.
And it’s it’s like a graduate attribute that needs to be iteratively and incrementally developed over the over the course of the of the degree.
One more point. I’m I’m worried because you’re wagging your finger at me. No. No. Well, I’m going I’m going wagging my finger at me more.
So So so from my sins, I’ve sort of I’ve got involved now with the AI group and Meagan Lilly who was just spectacular because she was on the AQF review and we’re talking in industry terms And I don’t have very clear. I don’t have labor market literacy. And I think, you know, there’s something something incumbent on us to help our graduates around labor market literacy.
The minimal labor market literacy, I’d like us all to have. And when I say because you know, but often now senior colleagues and and necessary others, including our students, don’t understand the difference between employment, which is the outcome of getting a job, and employability, which is the skills knowledge and dispositions that you have that gives you that makes you more likely to get a job and potentially be successful in that job. Employability is no guarantee of employment.
So when the when the performance based funding comes in if ever and it might come in off the back of the university’s accord, Sorry, Shane. This is sort of dirty Australian higher education laundry. I’m I’m I’m airing here.
Forty percent of the performance based funding was unemployment outcomes.
And we can’t necessarily be there’s not a defensive position But again, it’s part of educating. I think our students, our, you know, our profession, our higher education profession, industry counterparts, we can’t necessarily be held accountable for employment because that depends on a whole range of external labor market factors often that we don’t have any control over. A labor market competition, whether the labor market’s going up and down, whether there’s jobs available, whether whether the graduate is in the region, what university, what course they did whether there’s available jobs and often also the personal characteristics of graduates.
So students with disability who are increasingly participating in higher education I think the rate is that that’s one of the escalating rates. Are still finding it difficult at the end of the day to get an employment outcome despite whatever employability skills we’ve developed for them. And there’s other students, non English speaking background students, LGBTQ QIA plus students, low SCS students, young students who are un and under employed. So there’s a range of issues around us settling the language And then us taking responsibility within our various spheres of influence, I think about educating our our colleagues on this.
That’s gone well, that’s ten minutes.
Which is great for me. Apart from I now have four hundred foot.
And I have four hundred and thirty seven additional questions I’d like to ask. But my brain is not clever enough to kinda get them all in the right order.
I mean, there’s something that Michelle said right at the beginning, and when she made the distinction between employment and employability. And it’s interesting actually in the UK now. There are these I’m not sure what they call stand as requirements of b three requirements, but every student within, I think it’s nine months has to be in a graduate level Sorry, universities are measured on the students that are in graduate level positions, not just employed, but in what are determined to be graduate level positions. And of course, it’s such a short term measure because the the the the speed at which people change their roles and roles themselves as you’ve just described to change. And so that ability to develop the skills to learn, unlearn, relearn, be aware of what’s happening around you to apply yourself in the direction you want to apply yourself as well. It’s So let let me bring this back to a question, because you talked about lifelong learning.
It’s another language question. What are those skills we’re trying to develop? How do we refer to them collectively? Are they employability skills? Are they lifelong learning skills?
I think they’re not soft skills. Yeah. You know, there’s so much kind of language around that. How would you how would you sort of define the skills we’re trying to Well, that I think not soft in the first instance because I don’t think that’s helpful when it sort of others them and I’m very into not othering anything in particular, but othering the skills that employers now say are the skills that they really want.
There’s no easy answer to that. It’s it’s like being a hamster on a treadmill, I think if you keep trying to iterate to make sure that you’ve got the next set of skills because just as discipline knowledge has a limited shelf life, and we’ve known that for a while, you know, with the worldwide web out there doing all the discipline knowledge really that anyone could need. So to now, the shelf life of skills and skills set sets is is unstable.
So it goes back again to this meta cognitive capability, be it career development learning reflective capability, evaluative judgment, or whatever that wants to be framed. About thinking, well, where am I? What am I strengths and weaknesses? And where am I on that on that skill spectrum and where do I need to invest time in in development?
The the skills themselves, part of the question that you didn’t ask was it was around how you balance content skills and and whatever. And I think I’m jumping ahead, Sally. Oh, am I? I’m sorry.
I think I think we’ve set because I just want to deal with that because we’ve settled that in Australia to a larger stand, you know. And I’ve so so in for my sentence and I know this is being recorded, so I’ll be careful. I do go ran a variety of institutions, and so imagine there was an institution where one particular institutional group took a vote and said they’re not going to do skills. Well, my answer to that is, well, the higher education standards framework requires that you develop the the skills, knowledge, and application of them in that are set out in Australian qualifications framework.
Creativity is already in the Australian qualifications framework. For example, the current version of the Australian qualifications framework. So A lot of these things have said, we have to develop knowledge and skills, and skills are best developed in the context of the discipline. So that’s all good.
What the skills are, I do have a prepared answer for that, just off the back of homework that I’ve submitted previously, being part of the Australian qualifications framework review, we did this work. We tried to understand what would and we talked about knowledge skills and application in terms of action. So knowledge is information to inform action. Capabilities skills, skills to take action.
Application is the context in which the app the the action occurs.
Not as it’s currently stated in the AQF, which is weird. It’s pretending that it can be developed over ten levels of increasing capability.
But thinking about the context in which learning occurs and the assessment of that. Is this sounding like eportfolio to you? Because it sounds like it to me, And if we went with a revised AQF, we could actually articulate and employers tell us they want to know how students have applied their learning in different contexts and how we’ve assessed and assured that learning in a variety of contexts. And if you can produce or you can say in the qualification design that this will be represented in an e portfolio or this will be represented in sorry, an integrated example of learning could be developed in in the workplace and that’s a part of this particular course of study, then that seems to me an advantage.
So the sorts of things we spoke about for knowledge and I had trouble with this because knowledge for me use just content. But I finally I finally resolved it for myself so everyone can be calm because I’m calm about this now. Knowledge is both is all of scope and complexity this is under the revised AQF. We’re trying to identify what the knot what are the con what’s the content of knowledge, skills, and general capabilities that I’ll come to in a minute.
So knowledge was the scope and complexity of a particular knowledge area, inquiry, which I would call research skills, So that important, you know, what you how you find, source, evaluate, reference knowledge.
And then knowledge management information management which is how you manipulate knowledge for different purposes, or for the purposes of good, I’m assuming.
Skills we settled and we got advice on this from ASR, sorry, Australian crowd, learn a self management, problem solving and decision making, communication skills, cooperation collaboration, and here’s one, psychomotor skills. So the ability to use your own body or tools, Because also we’re trying to separate we’re trying to stop this divide between vocational education and higher education, and a lot of the trades use skills but you don’t need to go very far in your own disciplines to find, so the creative arts, Diana’s here, medicine, dentistry, and also this is a performance. You know, I’m using I’m using some part of body or whatever to do this.
So anyway, thinking about that, And then we talked about what the current AQF calls Australian qualification framework, calls generic skills, and they are they are listed there. They’re on the bottom of page eleven, if anyone wants to have a look, and they’re routinely ignored. So we realized them as general capabilities and we fussed with that language. The discussion paper came out with enterprise skills, And then on a note, we got lots of good feedback on that.
It’s always good to put something out there so that people can give you constructive feedback on it. So we settled on general capabilities, but for the purposes, enterprise skills or 21st century skills or work ready skills or employability skills that focused on foundational skills such as language learning and numeracy, because they tended to get skipped over a bit, and you can see how they might have application in different disciplines.
Core skills for work, which Harag gets I think, career development learning in and thinking about what that looks like. Digital literacy, the current AQF, from the nineteen nineties, surprise surprise does not contain any requirement for digital literacy. That seems to be a bit of a problem.
And I snuck in, and Peter Newton and God bless him, agreed ethical decision making because that almost seems to be a fundamental thing. And the difference between the general capabilities and you might might not agree with this, the general capabilities and the skills is that the general capabilities are not necessarily able to be to be developed in a taxonomic way over a series of levels, sort of routinely applied to all disciplines. So the general capabilities have to be developed in the context of the discipline, ethical decision making, in IT versus law. And and whether that’s a taxonomic thing in a up upper series of levels or not, The other language that’s being used now, and you nest this is UNESCO’s fault, and it just keeps popping up is transversal skills, which some of you may have heard of.
That sounds like transferable skills, and that’s what employers keep saying, that they want. So the the skills that they say employers, learners, earners, need to adapt to change, that aren’t necessarily specific to jobs or or particular industries or disciplines.
There’s a list of them and I don’t like the list, but I can I can take some out that I think are actually dependent independent, I’m sorry, of of particular jobs or skills? I say that because skills in a problem solving in law is completely different than problem solving. In IT or science or whatever. So I think those sorts of skills are skills to be developed in the disciplinary context, but these sorts of skills that might be transversal skills and apparently that’s a geometry expression. I don’t know, cuts across. I don’t know like a transversal like people that geometry and people who might know things about that could know that.
Organizational skills, leadership, adaptability, work ethic, global citizenship, adaptability.
So there’s a whole of of of terms that may or may not be appropriate Our students need clarity.
I was going to say at the end, there is a move towards developing a national skills taxonomy so that everyone can be using common language, not just from the AQF, which, of course, is my hero piece, but in schools, in higher education and vocational education, and for lifelong learning, even if they have disciplinary context.
The problem the problem is I’m sat here and you say a thing, And I’ve got a little, ah, I need to respond to that like this. And then you say another thing, I think, I need to respond. I want to be sat over there with my notebook writing all of this stuff down. So the best I can do here is when you talk about all of those skills capabilities, the application, you know, which Again, Michelle talked about And this has been a feature of my conversations actually as I’ve traveled around Australia so far.
Giving students a rich varied range of experiences.
And then, of course, they need to think about those skills.
Or what what’s being developed and how they can make connections.
But it seems most of the conversations and, of course, it might just be me looking for fault.
Seem to be from a delivery point of view, like, lots of mapping conversations.
So in this unit here, we’ll allow them to do this. And in this unit here, we’ll do this. And here they’ll do this other thing. And it seems sort of much more like in in old money, instructional objectives — Mhmm.
— rather than learning outcomes for students And so you invoked e portfolio and I think that’s the for me, the really important thing. And and I should say in terms of e portfolio as well, not the output of the portfolio, the process. Yeah. It’s as much of a process as a product planning, I think, and and replica and represents both Yeah.
And I’d almost get as far as I say more so because I think very few employers will look at students’ portfolio, however comprehensive or brilliantly produced it is. But those students who’ve gone through the process And I I mean, the way I’m closing out another question here, but hopefully will maybe still return to is that a skills articulation gap. You know, we keep on hearing, you you talked about employers.
Employers saying there’s a gap between what students are coming out of university knowing and understanding and what you know employers want.
But I think, and there’s lots of literature around this. Students are developing those skills. They just don’t They haven’t rehearsed well enough. The ability to talk to those skills. And I think that transferability thing we talked about as well, the ability to apply that in different context.
And I guess, not just transferability, but translation ability. Mhmm. How do we talk about it in higher education? And what’s how’s that talked about in in employment so the students knows that we’re talking about the same thing.
This isn’t leading to a question, but I also want to say, you know, I’m a and you kept pointing at me every time you said IT. Well, I don’t know whether you are IT. I made that up. I’ve got to have a small person so you’re it. Right back. I’m I’m hopefully was and still I’m a kind of it, a kind of educator.
IT is like a black art to me, but I know what I wanted my students to be able to do, and it was to think deeply about learning experiences they were about to have, had And then the connections they made between them, you know, the curricula they experience, the little things that happened outside the curricula.
I just happen to know a bunch of IT people could make a bit of software that sort of did that stuff.
But I’m also as well as being, you know, a vendor. I’m an employer.
And this If you saw the the people who work for me, we’ve got these students called degree apprentices.
And they work four days a week. And one day a week, they go to university. And over four years, they get a degree. But they get a degree that’s based on all of their learning experiences of working four days a week. And you pay them, don’t you And we pay them and we pay them properly. So learning while learning. That’s sort of got some equity ramifications, I suspect.
Well hopefully, I mean what it does do it makes higher education more accessible. So for And for equity is a question we really ought to talk about actually.
But these students are students, employees actually, who are still studying. Are incredible. And it I should mention here is not Well mental health day. One of our youngest employees introduced our well-being policy to our senior managers in here and the the fact Mhmm. And and so we, you know, talk about problem solving, actually. I’m doing lots of talking now on a shift asking simple questions.
You know, problem solving in IT maybe is different to problem solving in law. But problem solving in IT isn’t just about solving IT problems. If you saw my team working together, it’s about solving communication problems.
With each other about interdisciplinary problems they have to fix. And and add to that communication and all of those things. And So I think it’s I’m when we are with clearly are with you, absolutely essential students have the opportunity to develop these skills and develop them in multiple contexts.
And for us, we Our approach and most and many of you would be familiar with this is a agile approach to learning and it’s based on lots of retrospectives and daily stand ups. And here’s another skill. We talked about this when I was at USC on sorry, uni SC.
I think the USC?
Skills of if you like resilience, being able to accept challenging feedback and know how to deal with that and knowing how to give great feedback. So I guess there’s then a question with all of these skills and all of these experiences.
Where do they fit?
How do we get them in the curriculum? Anyway, although we had a question about programmatic assessments. Mhmm.
Where is it working really well? Is it working well anywhere?
So it takes me back. So in in So unfortunately, for higher education, we didn’t even know that the Australian qualifications framework existed until tech came along. The tertiary Education Quality and Standards Agency, the regulator came along in twenty twelve. Sad to say that the strain qualifications framework have existed since nineteen ninety and applied to us, we just never noticed. So again, I say, you know, we we have a requirement now under the Hyd Education standards framework. To integrate the development of knowledge and skills. And while we’ve just had a jobs and skills summit here in Australia, it’s all about skills first.
I would say as an aside, the Australian qualification framework doesn’t support that because it’s a taxonomy that’s pegged it to knowledge. And everything and a hierarchy of knowledge and everything, all the skills are assumed to develop in lockstep with knowledge when we know that they don’t. So imagining that you were an IT person and thinking about me as a law person, I may or may not have great digital literacy in the IT programming space, but I could have a level seven, eight or nine Australian qualifications framework and a certificate for in cybersecurity at a vocational education would have screens higher level of of IT and digital literacy than me. And that can’t be represented in this in the current framework.
So my so my bland answer to that, except for the discipline that took the vote about they don’t do skills.
Is we do develop.
We we all do that reasonably well. We understand constructive alignment now. Again, not necessarily something that when I started in higher education I had any idea about, I used to have to write down the difference between summative and formative feedback on a piece of paper because I didn’t really understand it. You know, that’s how uneducated we are to be going into higher education.
So I think we are doing really well. What we’re not doing well is assessing is assessing well.
And I conjure with David Bauer in this context. So David Bauer’s assessment propositions twenty twenty talked about assessing for integrative learning which is what you would like to think you could see at the end of the degree that would persuade employers that graduates have learned not just a discrete silo of of pieces of work but have somehow integrated all of it, knowledge and skills, and you’ve referenced This is more transversal. I think transversal skills that, you know, cow communication impacts collaboration, how that impacts across disciplinary, how that impacts problem solving.
So he talked about assessment representations that can that can present rich portrayals of students’ achievements, including integrative learning. And I wonder about the role that e portfolio might playing that even if as you say, and I go back to QUT, which I did which I did want to give a shout out to as well.
I first started with the portfolio at QUT back in the day back in two thousand really literally.
When our fabulous careers person. So this is how connected it should be in the ideal world, a Cole McAllen said our graduates from the university for the real world can’t articulate to employers because employers tell us this, that what skills that they’ve acquired over the course of their degree, and we know we think they have acquired some, but they can’t do it. So the the idea was almost like the national skills taxonomy, get the agreed language around skills. Put it in the middle.
I’m doing this because it’s in the middle between double degrees as well because problem solving or critical thinking might mean different things. In different disciplines and get students to populate a portfolio with artifacts that evidenced their learning not just so that they could articulate their learning in the in the job context, but also that they could see in a motivational and self and self regulatory and self self efficacious. I think that’s a word, way that they were acquiring skills over the course of their degree because it’s somewhat hidden because it is all atomized into in discrete subjects.
So that was all very rambling, except I think it it it goes to the programmatic. I think I think we’re reasonably good at doing it. We’re still struggling with assessment and authentic assessment, which we’re getting better better at and authentic authentic assessment, meaning blandly, assessment that replicates real world problems and issues or whatever. But there’s a nicer definition of assessment that I’m gonna skip wrong now. Characterized, authentic assessment, characterized by realism, cognitive challenge, and a valuative judgment, a valuative judgment being the capability to make informed decisions about your own performance and the performance of others. That seems to me to be a rich authentic description of authentic assessment.
And when you think about the possibilities under e portfolio and how students making connections, how they’re seeing development, how they record that, how they could be prompted to critically reflect right from dot day day dot about how they’re aggrandizing their CV and, you know, inequitable terms, it means that it’s available to all students, you know, so they don’t have to go off and co curricula or extracurricular get it from the area or go to a seminar or workshop, whatever because we’ve embedded it in the curriculum. We prompt to the reflection. We teach them about reflective capability.
Every time they do something, we remind them they should put an artifact in. So it’s the process and product of learning that they can see and motivates them in their learning acquisition. They can start making connections and they can be prompted to do that metacognitive self diagnosis about at different cornerstone points in the curriculum to be compared with Capstone. So cornerstone when they just have to check-in to see how they’re going, which that would be good assurance of learning.
They could do a reflection on what their strengths and weaknesses are and develop their own action plans. And think about their own professional identity and development against against whatever the requirements of the discipline are. And Carol just did this, I don’t think that means four. Oh, no.
I mean, I think you’re absolutely right about assessment with a really important driver for the development of these skills, but also the assurance that these skills are being delivered and received and connected across the curriculum.
Cole Macown by the way is the very reason I’m sat here. Because I met him in London, he said, come out to this lovely event in Brisbane, whenever it was, that first e portfolio forum thing. Otherwise, we may not be here. I presented at those first e portfolio forums at QUT.
Did you? I’m sorry I don’t remember that. No. I’m sure you were brilliant. I’m sure I was.
I I think I was too.
That’s a it’s also throw my oh, I I think you’re absolutely right. I think an so many things that you’ve just talked about will be reflected.
I think will be reflected through most of the presentations today actually. But soon I know when I speak at the end, there’s an awful lot of connections — Mhmm. — there to be made.
I’m slightly nervous, I have to say.
About I love the idea of a a sort of portfolio on multiple sort of skills frameworks almost. I’m a user with skills very loosely here. And students making sense and adding, you know, hanging experience on each of those things. Not just Not without thought, purposefulness, I think, is really important, intentionality.
Here’s the thing I’ve thought deeply about it I think I can make a connection between this thing and communication, but also cultural awareness, you know, those kind of mappings.
But I’ve I’m not yet sure that because I think what it relies upon is the academic body to to also do that prompting. You kept on mentioning prompting And I think we need to have somewhere through the curriculum. The sort of means by which the the teachers are saying, hey, this thing you have done probably is useful as evidence against that skilled framework. And that I think requires quite a shift in the practice of learning and teaching.
But it began assessment. It’s a good way to kind of surface that I think. Well then and a way you could do it. For example, if you had a cornerstone opportunity.
And so I’m I don’t know I’m thinking either first into second year or second into into third year and you’re trying to think about you know, what have I acquired over that period of time? They could prepare a portfolio view and they could peer assess. Mhmm. That so they can see what others what others are doing and and think about it, then that gets, you know, the evaluative judgment juices going and and starts to develop feedback literacies, which are as much about managing the affect.
You know, the the emotional oh, sorry. I just pained the microphone managing the the emotional response to hopefully constructive feedback, which is a giving and taking situation as anything else. So you know, there are opportunities, but we just need to think broadly. And and in my world, programmatic assessment, and I have tried to this would be embedding career development learning as much as we also do now with employability skills, but embedding career development learning from first to find with you because it can’t be an injection at the end.
They need to be starting to think about what that looks like, particularly in uncertain times where the world of future work could be five to twenty careers, whatever. That’s not helpful to keep saying that to them. We’ve got to tell them how they can self regulate around those matters. Carol’s done and look anxious.
Well, I wanted to talk about world ready and that’s been stood cented. I wanted to talk about multiple portfolios.
Should we go outside and carry on sharing? Okay.
Apart from we’ll miss the next fabulous presentation, Listen, can I thank Sally for her?
Thank you very much indeed. Appreciate that.